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ATutor 16 Beta Available



  • 2007-12-07 14:46:44

    ATutor 16 Beta Available

    ATutor 1.6 is now available for download and testing. The biggest change in this release is the conversion from old characters to a single character set, UTF-8, which provides univeral language support. The other significant change is a new look-and-feel, updating the default themes with a new DIV based layout, and a new appearance for the 1.6 series releases of ATutor. Community members should provide feedback on the system's upgrade, particularly for systems using languages other than those found in the Latin1 character set (i.e. ISO-8859-1). Production ATutor systems should not be upgraded with this beta version, but instead upgrade a copy of the production system, or perhaps a second test system. Please report any problems you find to the Bug Reports Forum.

    Download
    http://www.atutor.ca/atutor/download.php


  • 2007-12-10 07:43:53

    Re: ATutor 1.6 Beta Available

    thanks Greg, I've reported some bugs to the bug reports forum.

    also, as IndieRect has reported, custom course icon is implemented in a very strange way: http://www.atutor.ca/view/3/12062/1.html - I agree that this must be implemented the same way as e.g. profile pictures to be useful.

    more importaint, the "significant new look and feel". this is, to say the least, a huge dissapointment. it's plain to see that this is nothing else than bluemin / greenmin with different colors (I even ran a diff on Bluemin vs new default, confirming this)

    ...which touches on something that has been bothering me quite a bit lately.

    I did create a complete new theme and released this for comments in September: http://www.atutor.ca/view/16/11654/1.html

    this work was based on a discussion that started in the Wiki in January: http://wiki.atutor.ca/display/atutorwiki/Refine+XHTML+and+CSS

    and this new theme addresses several things that the community has wanted for a long time:
    * a new look and feel
    * switchable side menu
    * custom course banners
    * the issue with the drop down menu and long course names I reported here: http://www.atutor.ca/view/7/10463/1.html (not fixed in your new theme)

    the switchable side meny and the custom course banner was given to you so you could implement it any course properties page by adding a few more lines of code, explained in e-mail to you.

    it also introduced two new features that we've had really good response on:
    * print page functionality
    * new login page

    I do fully understand that you have not had the time to do more on this, due to change in staff etc. that is not a problem.

    what I do not understand is why you, after I have repeatedly asked you to, neglected to:

    * make any comments what so ever on it
    * make it available for download on your theme page: http://www.atutor.ca/atutor/themes/index.php
    * include it in your demo install to let the community try it without installing it themselves.

    which bringes me to the core of what is bothering me, namely what ATRC wants Atutor to be. it could be:

    a) the best open source LCMS available, which sometimes would mean chosing the better solution over your own solution, and letting the community have a say in the development and the future strategies needed to accomplish this, or

    b) a free and [b]openly licensed[/b] product that ATRC earns money on doing custom development for, but where the community has to take whatever you choose to give us.

    now, both these options are legitimate. I do however want you to address this issue, now, because it will most certainly affect which ways I will bother to contribute to the project on in the future.

    my goal is [b]first and foremost[/b] to have the best OSS LCMS for my organization, and I do want this to be Atutor, not to fund ATRC (allthough, as you know well, I am not in any way opposed to this either)

    so, where do you want Atutor to go, and by which strategy?


  • 2007-12-10 10:43:50

    If ATutor is moving, then where to?

    Two years ago I've seen all my changes being abandoned too ( http://www.atutor.ca/view/7/5767/1.html ), though the work I put into that particular feature can hardly be compared to Vegard's theme redesign. So I fully understand the emotions in the previous post.
    Indeed, it is not some expressive outburst, but rather a resonating verbalization of the most critical problem in ATutor's development.

    You've managed to create a powerful and accessible LMS, and we appreciate that. Today I saw many of the bugs reported by me fixed for the release.
    But for more than a year, since 1.5.3, there have been almost no major features in ATutor (with new question types and QTI support being notable exceptions).

    One thing should be understood clearly: it is hardly possible a successful project of such size with the efforts of one or two (part-time ?) programmers. This is no way such a project could compete with other LMSes, primarily Moodle.
    You dont need any more changes? The current ATutor features satisfy all your needs? Fine, but dont forget about thousands of active installations around the world. We need constant improvement and feature expansion according to our needs.
    We cant allow two months of relaxation (http://atutor.ca/view/12/11907/1.html ).

    The problem is there have been little actions toward creating a loyal and active community.
    Yes, there are support forums. Yes, one can create complete modules.
    But forums are of no use if proposed or required features are talked to death or just ignored (e.g., see the first link and http://www.atutor.ca/view/12/10528/1.html ). And modules are of a little use if theres no way to make changes to existing ones.

    Actually, you dont need to code everything with your own hands. Some work is certainly required, but you should better support people willing to do that for themselves. You have some loyal users (like me, Vegard, probably Sunee and others I missed). Why not include the changes they see viable to some SVN branch and evaluate them before inclusion?
    Yes, here arise some problems of coding style, accessibility, vandalism etc., but they are surely manageable, as evidenced by the very Open Source phenomenon.

    Unfortunately, Im not a student any more and wont be able to contribute all the things I could some two years earlier. And Vegard says he isnt experienced in PHP. But anyway, there are a huge number of people here, who just dont see reason to come back to the forum.

    Think over the ways you could motivate the community. To me it is apparent that urgent steps ought to be made in that direction.


  • 2007-12-11 13:07:07

    Re: ATutor 1.6 Beta Available

    thanks Greg, I've reported some bugs to the bug reports forum.

    also, as IndieRect has reported, custom course icon is implemented in a very strange way: http://www.atutor.ca/view/3/12062/1.html - I agree that this must be implemented the same way as e.g. profile pictures to be useful.

    [green]This was actually a student project, which hasn't turned out the way we would have liked it to. If we can find some time before the release, we'll patch it up, or we may just end up turning it off until we can address it properly[/green]


    more importaint, the "significant new look and feel". this is, to say the least, a huge dissapointment. it's plain to see that this is nothing else than bluemin / greenmin with different colors (I even ran a diff on Bluemin vs new default, confirming this)

    [green]It is a copy of greenmin, which is new to 1.6. We could not adopt your look-and-feel, since the default theme needs to take on a somewhat similar look to the atutor.ca site, which we're going to launch soon. We have adopted some of your ideas in the theme.[/green]

    ...which touches on something that has been bothering me quite a bit lately.

    I did create a complete new theme and released this for comments in September: http://www.atutor.ca/view/16/11654/1.html

    this work was based on a discussion that started in the Wiki in January: http://wiki.atutor.ca/display/atutorwiki/Refine+XHTML+and+CSS

    and this new theme addresses several things that the community has wanted for a long time:
    * a new look and feel
    [green]in the new default[/green]
    * switchable side menu
    [green]easy in greenmin and default with a style edit[/green]
    * custom course banners
    [green]already available[/green]
    * the issue with the drop down menu and long course names I reported here: http://www.atutor.ca/view/7/10463/1.html (not fixed in your new theme)
    [green]this is still an issue, but an easy fix. I've added it to the bug track, and it should make it into the coming release.[/green]

    the switchable side meny and the custom course banner was given to you so you could implement it any course properties page by adding a few more lines of code, explained in e-mail to you.

    [green] I don't recall talking about a course property. It may be I passed it to Heidi, who has been doing most theme work. Something like this would be a user preference, rather than a course property. It might be something to consider for the next version, but not something for this release. Understand our focus this release is primarily on the UTF-8 conversion, so not many new featrues made it into 1.6. apart from language related, and other bugs fix. The shuffling of staff has slowed us down a little this cycle, but that will chenge in the next one.[/green]

    it also introduced two new features that we've had really good response on:
    * print page functionality
    * new login page

    [green]Print styles are implemented. Adding a redundant print button (if thats what you mean) in the theme itself adds clutter so we wouldn't add it to the default. The theme is already becoming a little more cluttered than I prefer. The browser's print button should be enough. You can certainly include it in other themes though. I will take another look at the login screen, but I don't see a reason the change the current one. Perhaps you can describe the benefits of the new login.[/green]

    I do fully understand that you have not had the time to do more on this, due to change in staff etc. that is not a problem.

    what I do not understand is why you, after I have repeatedly asked you to, neglected to:

    * make any comments what so ever on it
    [green]Heidi, was originally working on this, but she has been dragged away onto another project for a while, and I suppose the topic got lost in the shuffle. Sorry about that. I have her back for a couple days to make some refinements to the new default theme.[/green]


    * make it available for download on your theme page: http://www.atutor.ca/atutor/themes/index.php

    [green]This is something you need to do. When you feel the theme is complete, upload through the themes page. [/green]

    * include it in your demo install to let the community try it without installing it themselves.

    [green]That we can do when we have a complete theme. Get it up on the themes page, and we'll add it. There are no changes in themes from 1.5.5 to 1.6, so the one you created for 1.5.5 should work fine with 1.6[/green]

    which bringes me to the core of what is bothering me, namely what ATRC wants Atutor to be. it could be:

    a) the best open source LCMS available, which sometimes would mean chosing the better solution over your own solution, and letting the community have a say in the development and the future strategies needed to accomplish this, or

    [green]We certainly do implement suggestions from community members, and the community does have a significant influence on development. But, we do not implement every suggestion made. We can't. The new theme is based on your comments and recomendations, but it was not possible for us to use the theme, but rather try to implement your suggestions in one we've designed ourselves.[/green]

    b) a free and [b]openly licensed[/b] product that ATRC earns money on doing custom development for, but where the community has to take whatever you choose to give us.

    [green]We charge for custom development work to recoup the salaries of the developers involved, but we do not make money, in fact we put much more of our own resources into development, than is contributed from community sources. We are a not for profit organization. [/green]

    now, both these options are legitimate. I do however want you to address this issue, now, because it will most certainly affect which ways I will bother to contribute to the project on in the future.

    my goal is [b]first and foremost[/b] to have the best OSS LCMS for my organization, and I do want this to be Atutor, not to fund ATRC (allthough, as you know well, I am not in any way opposed to this either)


    so, where do you want Atutor to go, and by which strategy?

    [green]We have a plan in place for the next year or so, which involves implementing a number of features the community has been asking for for years, but for which we have not had funds (Calendar, Gradebook, directory services,...), and to implement Fuild in ATutor, (at the funders of the formers request), and to implement ACCMD in ATutor which is an implementation of our work with IMS, and to create a PHP version of AChecker (Accessibility being the ATRC primary mandate). So, there is a mix of what we, and the community want. What else gets added into this mix is up to you are other users. [/green]


    [green] I can say more on this, but perhaps your thoughts on how you expect ATutor, to go, and by which strategy, would help me understand better how we can address your concerns about direction. Start another thead on Direction.
    [/green]


  • 2007-12-11 16:17:43

    Re: ATutor 1.6 Beta Available

    [green]Indie, please! You are asking me to defend our position, posting information that is for the most part incorrect , or misguided.. Of course I can not let this go unanswered. While I appreciate the contributions you make, sometimes, frankly, you can be a pain, not doing your research before making statements that I have to set straight. [/green]

    Two years ago I've seen all my changes being abandoned too ( http://www.atutor.ca/view/7/5767/1.html ), though the work I put into that particular feature can hardly be compared to Vegard's theme redesign. So I fully understand the emotions in the previous post.
    Indeed, it is not some expressive outburst, but rather a resonating verbalization of the most critical problem in ATutor's development.

    [green]This is an issue of misunderstanding. As I've described in the reply to Vegard, many of his suggestion have been implemented, but not all of them. As for your suggestions, they also are pretty well all implemented now. [/green]

    You've managed to create a powerful and accessible LMS, and we appreciate that. Today I saw many of the bugs reported by me fixed for the release.
    [green]Yes, bugs are generally dealt with near the end of a development cycle. Not always as they come in, except perhaps critical or security related bugs. It also depends on the time we have available. You'll notice I gave up my Sunday to deal with the i8n issues you posted (thanks for identifying those). [/green]

    But for more than a year, since 1.5.3, there have been almost no major features in ATutor (with new question types and QTI support being notable exceptions).

    [green]Major features are expensive, and we do expect the community to foot the bill for many "tool" type additions to the system, or at least help us recover the costs of developing such features. If you look through the mantis change log, you'll see a great deal has happened since 1.5.3, work we focus our efforts on that the community is less likely to want to fund, like converting to UTF-8. [/green]

    One thing should be understood clearly: it is hardly possible a successful project of such size with the efforts of one or two (part-time ?) programmers. This is no way such a project could compete with other LMSes, primarily Moodle.

    [green]Yes, we are short staffed at the moment (you know that). We are working on that. These things take time. [/green]


    You don't need any more changes? The current ATutor features satisfy all your needs? Fine, but dont forget about thousands of active installations around the world. We need constant improvement and feature expansion according to our needs.


    [green] Come on! You know thats not true, When has it ever been uttered "you don't need any more changes", or anything to that effect. And when has there ever been a stop in development? [/green]

    We can't allow two months of relaxation (http://atutor.ca/view/12/11907/1.html ).

    [green]Seriously? That's rather bold of you. You know why SVN was silent during my absence, and my holiday schedule is really no ones business outside my place of employ. ATutor was managed quite handly by Harris while I was away. [/green]


    The problem is there have been little actions toward creating a loyal and active community.
    Yes, there are support forums. Yes, one can create complete modules.

    [green]Posts like this one, certainly don't encourage loyalty. Its a two way street. I will not back down from such a challenge in order not to keep your loyalty. I am rather aggravated (again) by statements that have no basis in fact. I have no choice but to set the record straight. [/green]


    But forums are of no use if proposed or required features are talked to death or just ignored (e.g., see the first link and http://www.atutor.ca/view/12/10528/1.html ). And modules are of a little use if there's no way to make changes to existing ones.

    [green]What are you talking about, talked to death or just ignored? We do our best to reply to every forum post, with a few exceptions. We do miss the occassional one. As you know, much of the help offered here is done on our free time, not to mention being free (on top of the free software), And, why would there be no way to make changes to modules? They were developed to be changed. [/green]

    Actually, you don't need to code everything with your own hands. Some work is certainly required, but you should better support people willing to do that for themselves.

    [green]What makes you think we don't provide support for module developers?[/green]

    You have some loyal users (like me, Vegard, probably Sunee and others I missed). Why not include the changes they see viable to some SVN branch and evaluate them before inclusion?

    [green]SVN is available to those who ask, and can demostrate PHP skill. In the vast majority of case changes to the trunk offered by users are small, and do not warrant a branch. You might mention which change you are talking about that might warrant there own branch. [/green]

    Yes, here arise some problems of coding style, accessibility, vandalism etc., but they are surely manageable, as evidenced by the very Open Source phenomenon.

    Unfortunately, I'm not a student any more and won't be able to contribute all the things I could some two years earlier. And Vegard says he isn't experienced in PHP. But anyway, there are a huge number of people here, who just don't see reason to come back to the forum.

    [green]How did you go about making that observation? This is what I mean by statements not based in fact. [/green]


    Think over the ways you could motivate the community. To me it is apparent that urgent steps ought to be made in that direction.

    [green]If you got ideas. Please share them. But, please be factual. [/green]


  • 2007-12-12 05:39:55

    Re: ATutor 1.6 Beta Available

    thanks for your comments Greg and IndieRect,

    let me try to sum things up from my part. I did create a new theme primarily because [b]we[/b] needed it. we have been using it exclusively since it was done, had lot's of good feedback, and will continue to use it and improve it. it also has some functionality (namely course banners) that are essential to us, and that we have used since Atutor 1.4.*

    because of this experience I figured it could be of interest to the community, and to the developers, specially as we have discussed a new theme and a code clean-up in the wiki.

    I asked for comments so that I could work with you to [b]maybe[/b] have this as the basis for a new theme for the 1.6 series, but you did not respond at all, and because of that I lost interest in working more with the theme for the Atutor project, and concentrated in making it the best for our install of it.

    let me quote myself:

    [i] developers, if you wish to switch standard theme for the next release, as has been talked about, I'll be happy to go through other files to remove inline CSS, tables etc, and add a few classes here and there to make future styling easier.[/i]

    ...

    [i]now, do the admins have any comments? for me the most importaint part is not to have a new default look, the importaint part is that Atutor is delivered with better markup and fewer inline styles than today, making it easier for the community to create distinct themes / looks by only editing CSS. [/i]

    ...

    [i]if you wish, use my markup, and I'll clean up the rest of the code, removing inline styles, and adding some classes where appropriate. if you wish I'll even duplicate the look and feel of the current default theme, but using the markup from my theme..? [/i]

    I did offer to duplicate your design here, so this can not be a design question, I also offered to do the insanely boring job of cleaning up old inline styles for you, but to no response at all.

    now, you have many comments [b]here[/b] regarding the course banner (no, not what you call a banner), the print button, the styles, the design, the UI, the login page etc. great! it's just that I was prepared to discuss this and work on it in September, and in the proper thread, now I have lost interest.

    to sum up, I do believe Atutor is the best OSS LCMS by far, it is a great piece of software, you have certainly listened to me a whole lot in the past, and in general I really enjoy working with you both personally and professionally. all in all, you do a great job, I do appreciate it a lot, I'm still an avid fan, and I still wish to support Atutor both financially and otherwise in the future.

    also, I would not have minded if you made a whole lot of money on Atutor either, rather the opposite. there is nothing wrong in getting paid to develop great software.

    but, when core community members like me and Indie express these concerns, regardless how emotional they might be, I believe it is wise to read it carefully, and atleast consider that there is a reason we express these concerns. if ATRC is perceived as arrogant and not listening, community members [b]will[/b] leave, and it [b]will[/b] hurt the application

    best, vjo


  • 2007-12-13 09:11:34

    Re: ATutor 1.6 Beta Available

    Thanks for the response, Greg.
    I'm sorry for having my post written in such a tone. Sorry if it has offended you. Really sorry. I admit it was too impulsive and I should have stripped off the sentiments and ordered my thoughts before posting. I regret letting my emotions take over plain facts.

    Not trying to justify the manner, I have to say that most of the [i]ideas[/i] laid down in the post have been developing during a long time and do have basis.

    Probably I'll begin with rephrasing the main problem, which was somehow lost in the discussion.

    [b]I. The main problem of ATutor is the absence of a loyal and active community.[/b]

    The statement of the problem's importance is my own perception. I would elaborate on that later if you like.
    However, the second statement (the lack of community) is supported, in my opinion, by the following facts:
    1. There are a few community members regularly posting at ATutor's forum.
    2. There are even fewer regularly answering others' posts.
    3. There are a few suggesting their changes in a ready-to-implement form (diffs, code fragments etc.).
    4. Leaving aside casual posting and concentrating upon larger topics, there are a few members discussing development strategies in the forum or wiki.
    5. Finally, as far as I know, there are [i]no[/i] community members involved in everyday ATutor maintenance via SVN (trunk or branches).
    While trunk changes may have been limited to ATRC members only, an ability to at least commit to branches was several times suggested by you, including once to me personally at http://atutor.ca/view/7/5767/1.html#5771 . So the absence of such commitments may mean the lack of community interest.

    Just in case you'll want to say that: I'm also a part of the community described, and I agree beforehand that all the above facts apply to me too. The reasons are below.


    [b]II. The ideas about not implementing features, changes to existing modules, developing new modules, and a large number of people not willing to come back to the forum.[/b]

    All these can be ultimately boiled down to several related things:

    1. There are features repeatedly requested by different users (some -- for years). I agree that some of them like Gradebook require large work and I understand they may stay queued for a long time. But others may only need minor changes. Often, they are agreed with in principle and later abandoned, and sometimes ignored (at least as it appears to those requesting).
    This also applies to changes to existing modules.
    Sometimes such posts are written in a wrong manner or style, but often that can be explained with psychological barriers and/or poor English of their authors. Anyway, I believe they should not be left without any feedback at all.
    Examples of the small feature requests, abandoned or forgotten:
    http://atutor.ca/view/2/11513/1.html (two registration features)
    http://atutor.ca/view/2/7061/1.html (search in the whole course)
    http://atutor.ca/view/2/10939/1.html (SCORM stats)
    http://atutor.ca/view/7/11666/1.html (individual classrooms)
    http://atutor.ca/view/2/11382/1.html (welcome page)
    http://atutor.ca/view/12/10528/1.html (LDAP)
    http://atutor.ca/view/2/11731/1.html (more info on instructor's homepage)
    http://atutor.ca/view/3/8595/1.html#8619 (no. 5, "# of" bugs)
    http://atutor.ca/view/2/4318/1.html (second name field; note the initial 2 months of no reaction)
    http://atutor.ca/view/2/4654/1.html (cheating prevention, the part of the thread till 2005-08)

    2. Some features are talked over to the point they just stall. See the discussion http://atutor.ca/view/7/5767/1.html up to where it paused in Sep 2005; more on that thread later in this post.

    3. People not coming back to the forum is an anticipated result of the previous two points. It refers to those who requested a change/feature and, unsatisfied with the answer, didn't want to post anything again.
    Now when I have checked, I see that their number is hard to determine, and the factual figures are probably insufficient to support my point of view.
    However, I'll list a couple of fresh ones for a reference:
    http://atutor.ca/view/7/11666/1.html
    http://atutor.ca/view/2/10121/1.html
    http://atutor.ca/view/2/11382/1.html
    http://atutor.ca/view/2/10939/1.html


    [b]III. Issues with motivation.[/b]

    I believe that motivation is essentially implied in all the points I made here. So it's worth devoting a separate part to.

    In the above post Vegard has mentioned twice about a loss of interest. In fact, any proposal of help from a community member has some validity period.
    ATutor users are, most likely, not paid by their employers for submitting new features to ATRC. Those who do offer their programming help (as opposed to keeping developed features for themselves) might be driven by one or more of the following motives:

    1. Making future upgrades easier. Often the changes (mostly minor) to a local installation are to be made regardless of whether they are included into the SVN trunk. Unless they are, the changes need to be re-implemented after each upgrade -- a work that everyone would like to skip.
    2. Receiving recognition among ATutor community, peers, the management, future employers etc.
    3. Practicing in PHP/MySQL/CSS/SVN, programming in a team.

    Hope I didn't forget anything substantial.
    Of the listed items, all are vulnerable. If an offer is not accepted by the developers with a sufficient level of attention and interest (which is a very personal figure), then a community member gives up. He/she decides to develop a feature and maintain it with own work, finds other ways of acquiring recognition or other project to play with.
    If that happens, loses the ATutor community at large.

    I feel that crossing that limit may be the reason for why many people have quit.
    Not to construe any particular case, I'll highlight the two that have clearly developed into the reason being articulated:
    1. Vegard's theme development: from http://atutor.ca/view/16/11654/1.html to this thread.
    2. My password encryption proposal: the mentioned http://atutor.ca/view/7/5767/1.html , especially http://atutor.ca/view/7/5767/2.html#5953 and below.

    I don't say it always look like that; I believe you could provide counter-examples.


    [b]IV. What to do further?[/b]

    After having said all of those really uninspiring things, I want to stress: ATutor is a software and community we have strong plans to rely upon in the following several years, and probably beyond. We've put a lot of work, time and money into ATutor's adoption among our departments, and are going to develop a number of tools in a mid term.
    Everything that me and my colleagues have posted and will post here have an ultimate objective of making ATutor better and suiting us. I apologize if pursuing that goal I've said anything impolite and promise to do my best to prevent unnecessary conflicts.

    Some ideas, all having motivation at the center:

    1. From my point of view, the ATutor Team should involve community members into the decision-making process. It needs to take an active stance in discussing feature requests and suggested patches.

    2. More possibilities should be given to those willing to contribute. If a feature comprises a large piece of work, than the developer should probably be [i]offered[/i] some support on the very first steps and thus encouraged to start (not waiting until he gets involved and starts asking questions himself -- the beginning is usually the hardest part where a large percentage quit).

    3. Also it would be nice to see the feature priority to be assigned based on the community demand and to be relatively independent of which one has more chances to be paid for.
    Therefore, I'm glad to see some features, especially Gradebook, in your priority list.

    My experience in community building is quite limited, but I'm ready to put my effort into discussing specifics in a separate wiki or forum thread.


  • 2007-12-13 10:26:28

    Re: ATutor 1.6 Beta Available

    Hello Vegard
    I hope we can chalk this one up to experience. Sorry things turned out the way they did. We are guilty of loosing track of your work on the new theme.

    We will try to get as many of your suggestions in before the coming release, and if you should decide you'd like to revisit this, we can talk about setting up a branch for you for the next release (1.6.1), so you do have a place to work. If not, that's okay, we ourselves are working at removing inline stayles throughout, although as we come across them, rather than a focused effort.

    [reply][b]In reply to:[/b]
    thanks for your comments Greg and IndieRect,

    let me try to sum things up from my part. I did create a new theme primarily because [b]we[/b] needed it. we have been using it exclusively since it wa...
    [op]forums/view.php?fid=7;pid=12171;page=1#12212[/op][/reply]


  • 2007-12-14 04:38:18

    Re: ATutor 1.6 Beta Available

    no problem at all Greg! I wanted to get that off my chest, and I hope you understand better why now! :)

    I am far to buzy to do the styles work now, but will let you know when / if I will be able to.

    you do not have to rush to get any of my features in, that is not importaint for me at all. I'm on line with Indie here, the importaint part is to [b]always[/b] discuss and give some response (negative or positive) to feature suggestions, bug reports, questions from newbies etc. I have seen the same posts and in general made the same observations as Indie here, and I agree on his suggestions on how to deal with this in the future. this was, believe it or not, the main point of my very first reply in this thread!

    I do [b]not at all[/b] say that you do a bad job, that this is easy, can always be done, is not frustrating etc. it's just said to acnowledge that apart from the obvious code, the greatest asset [b]any[/b] open source product has is it's community and how this is managed! this is my personal opinion of course, but I believe it is quite plain to see this when you look at successful and less successful OSS projects.

    that said, I will try to be better at this myself, as I do not answer all posts I see either, but some posts has to be answered by the developers, as you are the only one that can answer them.

    I have some other more specific suggestions / thoughts, but I will post them in a different thread so we can discuss them there!